Entrepreneur and investor, SC Moatti, discusses the different stages of growth and offers advice for effectively retaining users.
Mobile Growth: We’re here with SC Moatti. How are you doing, SC?
SC Moatti: Great, thank you so much for having me.
Mobile Growth: Why don’t you give us a brief rundown of your recent history. How did you end up here in this podcast?
SC Moatti: I’m a Silicon Valley investor, entrepreneur, and visionary. For most of my career I spent two dozen years building products and companies in mobile. My last company sold to Facebook. II spent a few years there. After I left Facebook I became an investor and wrote an award winning best seller book called ‘Mobilized’. I also started a foundation called Products That Count, which is a way for product leaders in mobile, entrepreneurs, and many others to learn what it takes to build great products.
Mobile Growth: Our focus today is going to be on the different stages of growth. Let’s dive right in. Why do you think some of the biggest names in the tech industry start to see diminishing returns over time?
SC Moatti: This is a very common situation for most people who think of growth as this overnight wonder, a continuous path. This is absolutely not a linear process. When you think of giants, like Instagram, their early stages of growth was really hard. When you think of very successful companies like Trulia, their middle stage of growth was a challenge. When you think of giants like Facebook or LInkedIn, their very high or advanced stages of growth were challenges. That’s because, at different stages, different things work. What used to work no longer works. So, you need to reinvent your growth strategy. That’s because your company culture affects how you grow.
I see companies that are very data driven. They grow with a very strategic approach. That’s great, until it generates diminishing returns. And then, I see companies who are more creative and less data driven. They grow as well, but again at some point a creative-only approach generates diminishing returns. What you really want to do is reinvent your growth strategy every step of the way.
Mobile Growth: When these diminishing returns start to happen, how should product managers and marketers work with their product differently?
SC Moatti: I’ll give you an example. Let’s say you’re at a relatively early stage and you’ve done lots of great things that have gotten you to grow. You’ve made sure that all of your analytics chain is lined up so you can measure every conversion step, every move that your users make from the first touch point all the way down to your conversion events, which most likely is going to be a purchase. You’ve also been super creative. You’ve put in a bunch of viral loops that get people to invite users. They’re fun and they’re easy to complete so a lot of your users are going through that. By a combination of that and few other tactics, you’ve gotten to the point where you’ve been able to acquire a lot of new users very quickly. That’s the early stages of growth.
But at some point, when you start seeing diminishing returns, your group of users is no longer just new users. You have a group of new users that you continue to acquire, but you also have a significant group of existing users. You’ll need to grow them, reengage them, because it’s going to be an effective way for you to grow at this middle stage of growth. As a product manager you need to do is constantly look at who your users are and adapt your growth strategy to that. If you are a relatively early product and you have primarily new users, have a growth strategy that’s focused on them – onboarding them, getting viral loops, measuring every step of the way and trying to understand them. When you start to have new and existing users, in a significant ratio, then you need grow strategies that are going to continue to acquire new users, but also re-engage and segment your existing users.
Mobile Growth: To follow up, would you suggest that companies provide a different user experience for a newer user versus a returning user? For instance, there’s a switch that gets pulled at six months, or x number of times?
SC Moatti: The short answer to your question is yes, once you add that stage where you have both new and existing users, you really need to focus on a tailored experience for the new users, and a tailored, or several tailored experiences, for your existing user, or existing segments of users.
With regard to the switch between new users and existing users, there are two ways to think about it. The first one is threshold of engagement. Here’s an example, Pandora. Pandora is a very unique music service. What makes the magic of Pandora is that you tell them a song you like. They’ll give you two hours of songs that you may not know, but most likely you will enjoy. The magic of the service happens as soon as you create your own music channel. As soon as you tell them, ‘I love that song, give me two hours of similar songs that I don’t know but will probably like’. You need to focus your new user experience on hitting that magical moment.
Take another example. For Uber or Lyft, the magical moment is to get a ride. You get into the car, you don’t have to call a taxi, you don’t have to give directions, you don’t have to pay; you just get into the car, then get out of the car. That’s the magical moment. So, your new user experience focus is, number one, understand what that magic is. What are the key metrics that measures what that magical moment. Then drive all of your new users to it.
I’ll give you a third example. At Facebook, we had a new user experience. If you’re new to Facebook, or if you know people who are new to Facebook, the experience they’ll have as a new user is very different from the experience of a traditional user. The traditional user spends 95% of their time in the news feed. However, the new user doesn’t even see the news feed. All they see is, ‘get more friends.’ There are different ways to invite people: link to your contacts, integrate, use your address book, invite people into your contacts, and so on and so forth until you hit a threshold of 20 friends. Lots of experiments and analyses were done to understand that the magical threshold. It’s the point at which your news feed has become a meaningful experience with content that you’ll be delighted by, and has enough content that you’ll want to come back to. So the new user has an experience of ‘before you get 20 friends’, which is basically, ‘get more friends’. Then the existing user experience is what happens after you get 20 friends. Before that, you don’t see the news feed, you don’t need to create a profile, there’s none of that. That is the first way that you onboard new users, by getting them to experience the magic of your product so that they come back.
Now, there’s another way to onboard new users. It’s less glamorous, but very effective: give enough value to a user that they will give you a way to contact them back. When you look at real estate services like Trulia or Zillow, you browse them on your mobile device. The first thing you see is a bunch of listings: some houses for sale, or houses for rent, depending on your needs. You start browsing them. You get value immediately. You don’t need to log in. You just get value. And then at some point, you say, ‘well, I live in San Francisco and I’m looking to rent a two bedroom’. Then you start to refine your search area. That’s when Zillow or Trulia will say, ‘do you want to save this search, so we can send you similar listings?’ Up until that point value is provided to someone without anything in return. When it asks you for contact information, you say, ‘of course, because I’m looking for a place to buy or to rent that has this criteria, so I want to know everything new that comes up on the market’. That is the threshold at which somebody will give you their contact info. So when you think about onboarding, the two key moments are, number one, get someone to experience the magical moments like the Pandora experience. Number two, get someone to see a value in a product so they will give you a way to contact them back and reengage them, like Zillow or Trulia saved searches.
Mobile Growth: The different stages of the users’ mentality, that’s something I think a lot of growth marketing experts and app marketers don’t think about.
SC Moatti: You’re right. For most “marketers” or growth marketers, it seems like it’s an aside. But, if you don’t think about your product this way, what you’re going to end up doing is spending a ton of money on users and they’re not really going to convert as well or as effectively as you want. A more effective tactic for a growth marketer is to focus on this kind of product improvement. They’re going to get a bigger bang for the buck and their ROI or cap is going to look much better, because they’re focused on the later stages of conversion rather than on the ad spend.
Mobile Growth: What’s your best advice for product managers and marketers on how to get back on track for accelerating their growth?
SC Moatti: Looking at the early to mid stages of growth, when you start to see those diminishing returns, there’s a few things you can do. First, look at your current tactics. If most of them are data driven – if they involve growth hacking, conversion optimization, or AB testing – and you start to see diminishing returns, it’s time to get creative. Be less data driven and more creative. For example, what I recommend is some elements of personalization. Personalization is asking, ‘how do I use the identity of my user’ or ‘how do I use location or time of day, to provide a better experience?’
Think about it creatively: ‘how do I create a viral loop?’ There are a few stages to create a viral loop. One is, when you want someone to brag about something they’ve just done, because they’ve just had a positive experience, you ask them to share it with friends. It’s a matter of identifying these positive experiences. Another one is inviting friends. When you have a service that has some virality to it, like a communication or messaging service, you want to get people to invite friends so they can make the most out of it. These are more creative ways to get growth. If you’re too data driven, think of creative ways. If you’re not enough data driven and you know your marketing tactics are mostly around creative, then look a little bit more at your data.
When looking at data, I recommend slicing and dicing your data. For example, ‘how does my conversion work on Android versus iPhone’, ‘how does my conversion work at different times of the day’, ‘how does my conversion work in NY versus San Francisco, on different platforms, different geographies, etc’? Identify gaps in the conversion. You may see, you users who are in NY are converting much better than in San Francisco. Ask why is that? Working backwards from that and fixing these discrepancies is going to drive your conversion significantly. You’ll see that Android users convert much faster, because maybe the user experience on Android is slightly different. So you look at what you can bring back to iOS and therefore increase the conversion of your iPhone users. Again, your bottom line is, when you get diminishing returns, look at how your marketing is driven. Is it data driven, maybe too much, is it not data driven, maybe not enough? Try to bridge that. Once you’ve gone through that a few times, what will happen is that you’ll get diminishing returns no matter what you do. That is, because you’re entering the limit of your current stage of growth. Remember, when I was mentioning the ratio of new users to existing users? That’s a huge one. When you start to have a meaningful chunk of existing users, you want to start paying attention to them.
Mobile Growth: Is there a ratio that you would prefer for that?
SC Moatti: That’s a great question. It depends on a lot of different factors. It depends on your rate of growth, how quickly you acquire new users, and it depends on the complexity of your product, like how many things can your existing users do. I don’t know of a strong threshold, that’s why the warning signal I see is when both the data driven and the creative side of acquiring new users start to get diminishing returns. With your existing users, what you want to do is segment them. Because most likely, unless you’re relatively early, not everyone is going to behave the same. Typically the segmentation that I’ve used, and I’ve seen used a lot in the industry, is the whale, dolphin, and minnow segmentation.
The whales are the very small sliver of users who bring you the majority of your revenue. We’re talking maybe 1% of users for probably over half of your revenue. These people are golden. They pay the bills. Whatever they say, you do. The second segment is the dolphin. These people are your social butterflies. They want to share stuff they want to buy, they tell their friends about things, and these are people who you want to have on your side. You want to give them good stuff to share about your service. They’re the ones that you’ll engage with on the viral loops, the ones you’ll have as ambassadors. The last category are the minnows. The minnows are probably 95% of your audience, and they’re just here for the show. When you think about Facebook, the minnows are most of the people who browse through the news feed but don’t necessarily post as much or like or comment. One of the big reasons that your whales and dolphins are there are because of the minnows. So you want to make sure that you keep them entertained.
Now what does that mean for growth? It means once you start looking at this second stage of growth, where you have a good chunk of existing users, you want to put them into segments. It can be the segmentation I just described or one that’s more relevant to you. You want to put your users in segments as quickly as possible. The reason for that is, if you have a whale that comes to your device. You want to know that as soon as possible. You want to make sure you continue to engage them and give them what they want, because they give you so much value. How you can do that is by creating what’s called post install events. Start identifying what a typical whale does on your service. Or what a typical dolphin does on your service. And try to identify, as quickly as you can, the series of post install events that’s going to give you relative certainty of what segments these users belong to when they join. By the way, I use this segmentation, because it’s used in the industry, but my husband thinks it’s makes no sense at all: Dolphins and whales live in the ocean, and minnows live in freshwater.
Mobile Growth: It’s a great analogy, because it helps people understand users in a different way. So to follow up about segmentation – can it be a little fluid? Can some dolphins become whales, or go back to minnow status. Or is there an advantage to keeping them in a certain segmentation, to hopefully encourage them to do what you think they should be doing for that segmentation?
SC Moatti: That’s a great question. You want to anchor people to become whales as much as possible, but there’s also a natural behavior of users and how they relate to your service. It’s definitely flexible. But you also want to make sure your people get what they want. Eventually, as you start reaching the limit of some stages of growth, you’re going to try to up-sell people, try to put them in different categories, or give them a family plan instead of a single plan, etc. But at the beginning, when you’re transitioning from that earlier stage to the middle stage, you really want to understand people as quickly as you can and then give them what they want.
One thing you can do is tailor their experience to their needs. I’ll give you a couple of examples. Let’s take the whale one first. A whale is buying more stuff than others. Let’s look at Amazon (I love books, I’m a bookworm.) If you go on Amazon and you look for my book, SC Moatti, ‘Mobilize’, and say ‘OK I’m going to buy this book’, immediately afterwards they’re going to show you a list of three or four other books that people have bought as well. Well guess what, when you’re a bookworm like me, you’ll end up with four or five books instead of just one. That’s a great tactic to use with a whale. Why? Because that person doesn’t need to look for other books that SC might have written, other books on the business of mobile, or other books on building great products. They’re right there. No need to search, no need to spend more time, let’s just get those. This is something that you can definitely apply to your whales as a very effective growth tactic.
We applied that, when I was at Trulia, to help people find a place to rent. When you’re in the market for a rental, it’s not a fun project. People don’t like it. It’s boring, it’s a waste of money, and people want to go through it as quickly as possible. So when our users found a place they liked, we knew it was a very defined set of criteria. It’s two bedroom, in some neighborhood, with parking and under a certain budget. So we immediately started to recommend: ‘hey, here are four more places, same neighborhood, same price range, has parking, are you interested?’ And most people said yes. So we made our money by the number of leads that we sent. Instead of sending one lead, all of a sudden we sent 4-5 leads. Then, we went one step further. We didn’t even ask people. You clicked on one lead, expressed interest, and we sent the same interest to 4-5 different places. We made it very easy to up-sell, and we were worried that people weren’t going to like that. In fact, the customer satisfaction score went up, because we made life so much easier for our users, and for our whales in particular. This tactic of trying to shortcut and up-sell your whale is a very effective growth tactic. And if you think about that Amazon example of books you recommend, you can apply that to your own business.
Mobile Growth: Say you have a dolphin. They’re engaged, they’re not a whale yet, but they’re definitely more engaged and active than a minnow. Let’s say for whatever reason they start dropping off, going into minnow territory. You wouldn’t want to use the same up-sells and offers to get them into whale status if they’ve dropped out. Would you then treat them as a minnow, or would you continue to treat them as a dolphin to try and re-engage them in the things they used to do more often?
SC Moatti: If they’ve dropped into the minnow category, what I would do is look for what I call hooks. A hook is basically a feature that makes virtually anyone, not just your target market, but anybody want to use your product. I’ll give you an example again from real estate. On average, people buy a house every five years. If you’re Zillow or Trulia and you get a customer, your target market is a fifth of the population (every five years is a fifth). So it’s not a huge market. Once you have a customer who has bought a house, you say ‘Goodbye, see you in five years’. Not a very good velocity either for growth. Now think about the number of people who want to know the value of the house they live in. It’s a lot higher. And then, what about the value of the house your boss lives in? Or your ex-girlfriend? Or your ex-boyfriend? It’s not just once every five years that you’ll want to know that. It’s like once a week or once a day, ‘Damn, it’s going up!’ Is it good or is it bad? Is it making you happy because it’s your home, or is it making you furious, because it’s your boss’s home? That’s basically what the estimate is about. It’s a slightly inflated version of someone’s house, and it serves as a hook to virtually attract anybody. When you have a minnow, or the situation that you were describing, a hook for your service that will make virtually anyone excited and interested in using your service is super effective. If you can have something like that for an industry that is as boring as real estate, you can probably come up with something like that for any industry. Any listener here could have the equivalent of the estimate as a great hook to engage your minnows all of the time. And maybe get them back into dolphin status. The might say, ‘Oh my God, the price of my house increased,’ or, ‘here’s the historical trend of house prices in San Francisco’, and so on and so forth, pushing people further up into or back towards dolphin status.
Mobile Growth: Did you want to get into the additional strategies and identifications that you mentioned?
SC Moatti: For the dolphins, I recommend using the net promoter score. I love this metric because, first of all, it’s completely independent of anything. It’s not related to your product, it’s not related to your marketing, it’s not related to your content or anything. It’s simply, hey, do you want to recommend that product? Do you emotionally feel it’s cool enough that you would put your reputation at risk to tell your friends about it? It has nothing to do with organizations or features or tactics. It’s very objective, because it’s all about the user. Secondly, when you capture a net promoters score, typically you also capture feedback. If you have a dolphin, they’re going to give you feedback and hopefully that feedback is positive. They’re going to say something like, ‘this service is awesome,’ or, ‘this service saved me so much money’. Whatever they say is what you want to use in your messaging. If they say, ‘this service is awesome’, on your website, you want to say, ‘my service is awesome’. If they say, ‘it saves me a lot of money,’ you want to say, ‘my service saves you a lot of money.’ Because these terms are what they use to get their friends excited, and therefore that’s what you want to be using to get your users excited. If they have bad comments such as, ‘customer support never responded to my email’, you want to act on it! It’s not that difficult. Most of the time it’s pretty concrete, and it really helps you make a better offering and bring more users back. So, a great tool for the dolphins is using that net promoter score. The challenge is when to use it. You want to use it at the strategic moment when they have a good experience with you.
Mobile Growth: Getting back into our initial line of conversation, do you think it’s important to have your testing done and your growth and monetization strategies in place before you start doing a massive UA campaign? What would be the next logical step? What tools would you recommend to get some visibility into the product and the business?
SC Moatti: That’s something I would say is particularly relevant from the middle to later stage of growth. I see more and more that it’s relevant earlier. Definitely once you’re at the middle stages of growth and you have exponential user acquisition, you want to start paying real good attention to your monetization. Tools that you need: First of all, there’s hundreds of tools out there. There’s a bunch of infographics done around mobile analytics, mobile engagement, mobile BI, all that kind of tool. What you really need are two tools. The first set of tools is one that will track everything that happens from the first moment somebody interacts with your company or your offering, all the way to the moment they reach your actual product or your actual app. The second tool is for everything that happens once they start interacting with your product and your app. The first tool, the before-product tool, is called an attribution tool. You can think of TUNE, for example, or Adjust. Your second tool is an analytics tool, you can think of Google Analytics, or Amplitude for that. There are services that will give you a lot more than that. Leadplum is one of them, sort of going end-to-end. There’s hundreds of variations, you get this but not that, etc.
The reality is, when you start implementing these tools, most likely you already have some sort of home grown-solution. The challenge, of why there are so many tools and why it’s such a difficult question, is that you’re going to have to make your home-grown stuff work with the tools you’re going to get. Depending on your needs, if you want to focus on push notifications and engagement, you’ll lean towards Leadplum. If you’re more metrics-driven and you want to look at all the possible categories and slices and metrics possible, you may look more at Amplitude, or you may want both. But the tools question, the simple framework of ‘you only need two tools, attribution and analytics’, is a very complex implementation because of the complexity of your business priorities, the environment that you’re in, and the multitude of solutions available.
Mobile Growth: How would you set up and optimize a growth funnel?
SC Moatti: A simple answer to that is pretty much every single methodology for growth, boiled down to a relatively simple approach. One is, define success. Two is, put everything that happens before that into a funnel towards that success goal. Then number three, optimize the hell out of it.
Number one, define success: what I like to use there is what I call a business equation. I’m not going to expand a lot on that, but this means a lot of workshops, iterations, discussion, and brainstorming as a whole team to decide, what is the key metric we want to be for the next two, three, or six months? It’s critical to have a very well defined metric, so bring your analytics DI folks into the discussion. They’ll tell you all the pros and cons of using a ratio versus another another ratio, or versus a full number, etc. It’s critical to find the right metrics. Spend the time to define the right metrics and set a limited amount of time. Because if you ask your team, ‘what should we be focusing on’, you’ll get as many responses as you have team members. But if you ask your team, ‘what should we be focusing on for the next two, three or six months’, most likely you’ll get a very aligned answer. So that’s the number one: define success.
On number two, putting everything you’re leading to, or before that metric, to a funnel. Map your analytics, have the right tools in place, and make sure that you measure everything. Then number 3, optimize the hell out of that conversion funnel. We talked a bit about that earlier when we talked about slicing and dicing. But a quick example, let’s say it’s a purchase and you get a two percent conversion. Then around lunchtime you get a 7% conversion. Maybe there’s something about your service around lunchtime. Perhaps you’re a food delivery service and therefore you need to focus your marketing on just before lunch as opposed to afternoon. So, in summary, look at the slicing and dicing as a way to optimize that growth funnel.
Mobile Growth: Talking about optimization and conversions, do you think companies can grow faster if they sell to current customers or new ones?
SC Moatti: The typical thought is that it’s much harder to keep a new customer than it is to acquire a new one. But the question is really more about looking at customer lifetime value and your cost of acquisition. What happens is, you think of your business equation. Let me expand on that. Your business equation, economics 101, revenue equals volume times price. We’ll leave price out for a moment. When you look at volume, it’s actually two different things. It’s volume of transactions per customer, and then it’s the number of customers. So what do you want to do? What business are you in? Are you in the business of having fewer customers who have a lot of repeat transactions, or are you in the business of having many customers who do fewer transactions? Fewer customers, many transactions, like e-commerce, social media, all that stuff. More customers, fewer transactions, selling a higher price point like real estate or cars or stuff like that. And so, depending on the business you’re in, you’re going to want to focus on that transaction per customer metric or on that number of customer metric.
Mobile Growth: It seems like these are all different ways of just optimizing the three core strategies for increasing your business, which are get more customers, increase your profit margins or price, and get those customers to buy more often.
SC Moatti: Yes, the exact same thing and alternating. You were asking earlier about setting up a growth funnel. What should we be doing for the next two, three or six months, because your business will grow if you raise your price, if you get more customers, and if they buy more often? You want to alternate the focus of your growth team or your growth efforts to go from pure acquisition, which is putting big red buttons like, ‘subscribe now,’ everywhere, to engagement, which is going to get rid of the red buttons, to price, which is going to have a whole new set of up-sell and premium, etc. You want to alternate that, because that is what’s going to continue to make your service grow and be engaging.
Mobile Growth: There’s a philosophy, tell me if you agree or disagree, that you should work backwards from that. You should always think about, for optimization purposes, how do I make this experience where someone who’s already purchased is going to want to purchase again and again and again? Rather than thinking, how do I get this person, how do I get enough downloads, how do I reach a million users. I think you should work backwards, because once you get them then you know you’ve got them forever, right?
SC Moatti: That’s a great point. I hear a lot of folks, especially during the early stages when they’re trying to prove they really have something here say, ‘I’m just going to buy a bunch of users’. So they start from the top of the funnel, and they want to grow the top of the funnel. That is really not what I would recommend. I would recommend, just like you said, starting from the bottom of the funnel. If I get somebody, are they happy? Do they have a good experience? Do I make sure that they’re going to refer people? Start with the people you got, make them happy, and then move up in your funnel. If your funnel has 5, 6, 7 sets, go one step at a time starting from the bottom of the funnel.
Mobile Growth: Would you purposely hold your growth back, meaning as you grow would you want to put a choke hold on it a little bit? You want to make sure that you’re optimizing for the long term and not just taking advantage of short term gains, only to find out later there’s holes and you’ve already lost customers you might not get back. What’s your take, especially with the rising costs to acquire customers?
SC Moatti: This is the holy grail type question. My recommendation is to alternate. You start by looking at the bottom of your funnel. Is it actually worth the spending the money to acquire new people? Let’s first optimize that so when we get someone, they stay and they’re happy. Once we’ve done that for two, three or six months, move on and get a new set of users. What’s interesting is that most people will say when you reach product market fit, that perfect stage where you have figured out what people want, then you can just grow grow grow. Well, guess what. When you grow grow grow, you get a new set of users. These users have slightly different needs than the previous ones. So almost immediately after you reach product market fit, you lose it. It’s not like there is one version of product market fit. There’s actually 50 shades of product market fit. That’s where you need to alternate. So for two, three or six months, you’re honing your product market fit, making sure people are happy and engaged. Then perhaps you raise your prices a little bit, for two, three or six months, and you try to see what that does. And maybe you go back to growth, get more users, and see what they say. Are they the same, are they different, how do I segment them, and so on and so forth. Once you have these new users, you’ll see some of them are happy, or some not as much, and there’s things you’ll need to do to keep them engaged, so you’ll go back to engagement. So what I recommend is that you continuously alternate every two, three or six months between the three options.
Mobile Growth: I see a lot of people who have their profit margins set a little low and their monetization strategy isn’t aggressive enough. Depending on what you’re doing for monetization, anyone will pay 10% more for something, because it’s such a small increment, it’s a no brainer and an easy way to boost 10%.
SC Moatti: It never hurts to try.
Mobile Growth: You could always go back or you could do segmentation, right? One more question. What are the three things listeners can do right now, for their team and organization, that will help them shift their growth into two acts, three acts, or beyond?
SC Moatti: Great question. First thing I would say, if you are a team that is a little too much on the data-driven side, be creative and invite your designer to the meeting. Look out, interview a few users, and try something that feels risky. Second thing, if you’re on the opposite side – you’re not quite sure what data you’ve got and you have some very creative approaches but it’s not clear which one’s working and which one’s not, then have a very rigorous data drive. Look at your funnel every day, share your metrics globally across the organization, and you’ll see wonders. So the big thing, make sure that you have a very well balanced, well blended approach to growth between the data and the creative.
Second thing I would recommend is to think about your stage of growth, where you’re at in the cycle. Are you mostly acquiring new users? In which case, you need to nail your onboarding process. Are you at a blend of new and existing users? In which case, you need to identify that threshold between the new and existing users. Then you need to segment your existing users. Lastly, are you at a stage where you start to mature as an organization? In which case, you need to have a very ROI-driven approach to your growth. Look at your lifetime value, look at your cost of acquisition, and balance volume and value.
Mobile Growth: SC Moatti, thank you very much for your time. Everyone listening, go back and listen a couple more times, because there’s a lot of great information in here. Buy her books, see her talks, and check out her blog. SC thank you very much for joining us today.
SC Moatti: Thanks for having me, Louis, it was really fun.